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![]() A tempest in a teapot - or: The reactions to the Oracle support policy documentTuesday, March 30. 2010Comments
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Klar ist da viel FUD im Spiel. Das Problem ist: FUD gedeiht besonders gut, wenn es a) einen Anlaß (nicht Grund!) für Angst gibt, b) alles sich im Fluß befindet und c) man bestimmte Erwartungen hat (ob aus der Geschichte begründet oder nicht).
Die "Sun Customers!"-Ads waren da sicher ein guter Schritt. Sowas wäre nun IMHO wieder (über)fällig.
Your car insurance analogy is a bad one. Oracle is providing a service, period. The only reason for demanding a "reinstantiation fee" is to keep the customer scared enough that he won't have a second thought about cancelling his contract.
If you stop needing that service from Oracle, it's your decision. The customer shouldn't be punished if he wants to hire support again. This is all about ensuring a continue source of income. It takes all the risks from Oracle and puts them on the customers' shoulders. "Damn, this support isn't really providing us much. We don't use it that much for the price we pay. Let's stop it and if we start seeing problems that need official support we hire Oracle back again." "Oh no! It's $1000 for one year and if we stop and try to hire them again it's the $1000 fee + $1000 for support.. we better of keep paying them". And I'm talking about support from Sun/Oracle engineers on issues that a company might have. Not talking about security updates which I think only show the software has bugs that should be fixed and thus should be made free. Every other open source OS has it.. even Microsoft has it. Everybody knows that Oracle has the tendency to raise product/service prices for companies that it acquires. I don't think you have to come to its defence. What Oracle is saying is that it want to focus on the high-end market, the enterprises that have thousands of mission critical servers that really can't run them without official support. Solaris 10 for the small/medium/hobbyist market is dead. What about support only being available for Sun hardware, is that true ? Where I live a company would face a federal investigation for trying to sell something like that. Eg. You can only run Solaris if you have support. You can only have support for Sun/Oracle hardware. Tada! Software, Hardware and Services sold in one strike. I love catch-22s. That's all unless I'm missing something. Which only reminds me how Oracle has been silent about everything. I would be very happy if someone would enlighten me on these matters though, sincerely. Regarding people paying support for a single server and taking those updates to other non-supported hardware, that's just plain wrong and Oracle is right if they want to go after those people. Since we are on it, any word from Oracle on OpenSolaris besides the usual "we'll support it" ?
Well, but if you couple that with immensely higher prices for (possibly) the same service and having hit a bug in Sol10u8 where we got a IDR and were told that this issue will be fixed in 10u9 this makes the above really interesting.
Just to add some numbers (quoted from our sales partners): The same service contract will go up from ~1700€/a to >11000€/a. If that stays true, we will use something else on our thumpers and I partially regret that we are now locked in with our HSM system...
Urk... those sort of cost increases are exactly what is scaring us at the moment. A hike of anything more than a few % is likely the end of Sun here
1. Wer gegen Gerüchte vorgehen will, sollte mit Aussagen gegen andere Firmen vorsichtig sein: Zu "Or a car insurance you procure because you sitting in a car of a special japanese brand and you are seeing a red traffic light in front of you;)" passt folgender Link: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/automobil/131/507291/text/
2. Ich sehe nicht ein, wieso ich für die Ausbügelung von Fehlern in der Software Geld bezahlen soll. Zumindest Sicherheitslücken sollten kostenlos gepatcht werden (meine Erfahrungen mit Oracle DB sind da andere). 3. Ich benötige z.B. keinen 24x7 Support. Ich hoffe, Oracle wird dies in den Supportverträgen berücksichtigen. 4. Ich warte also erstmal ab, was wirklilch wird & kann mich dann immer noch aufregen und/oder die Plattform wechseln. Djaxa
Interessant ist das bei Dir in letzter Zeit immer die anderen Unrecht haben, zumindest scheint es so. Bei uns war noch kein Sun Mitarbeiter und hat uns als Kunde informiert das Ihr mal eben die Lizenzen umstrickt. Sonst kommt Ihr wegen jedem Unsinn an und klaut einem die Zeit.
Welche Kunden möchte Oracle denn haben ? Die Alten weg und neue rein ? Will ich Maschinen kaufen kommen keine Angebote von SUN mehr, man zieht sich zurück wie es scheint. Wir haben zwar nur 82 Maschinen von Euch, aber so werden es mit Sicherheit nicht mehr. Mir ist es mittlerweile egal weil Ihr und der Support keineswegs noch zu leben scheinen. Aber Ihr sterbt und merkt es offenbar selber nicht. Du schwingst hier große Reden während der wichtige Teil von SUN die Träume "aus der guten alten Zeit" nicht aus der Birne bekommt und an Mangelernährung zu Grunde geht.
1. Ich habe wenig Probleme Angebote für meine Kunden zu bekommen. Aber egal. Immer daran denken ... dieses Blog ist eine Nebenbeschäftigung ...
2. Es geht doch nicht um "recht haben" oder "nicht recht" haben. Es geht einfach nur darum, zu lesen was wirklich in diesem Dokument steht. Ich habe doch in diesem Fall auch nichts anderes gemacht, als mir das Dokument zu greifen und mal nachzugucken.
Vielleicht wird es ja noch einen Patches-Only Supportvertrag geben. Den könnte man dann praktisch auch in einen Lizenzvertrag umdeuten. Windows kostet ja auch Geld, dafür bekommt man die Patches umsonst.
I agree with most this - it's not a major issue to most users. It might put off the backroom dev boys who will just not bother with Solaris now - but then many of them hate Oracle anyway so may we avoid on principle.
What is really worrying us (a UK university with a reasonable amount of Sun kit) is the maintenance costs. We have (most) of our kit on silver - working hours, 9-5ish. Looks like Oracle are simplifying things to only offer one level (no surprise, it's what they said they'd do) - a 24/7 level that we haven't had a hope of affording in the past, and that we don't want or need as we don't have 24/7 staff! I can't see how this can be anything other than more expensive. Waiting on our Sun account manager to get back to us on this...worrying. At a time we are meant to be making cuts, we just won't be able to justify an increase in support to a level we don't want and can't use anyway. Could be the end of Sun/Solaris for us
I totally agree with you Mr. c0t0d0s0.
I know many people doing what you said (buying support for one maching, and using it for many machines, sometimes even customer's ones). And this contributed to Sun's fall. So now stop crying for Sun's death, when so many people didn't want to pay for their services. And I also totally agree with your "car insurance analogy". To answer GTirloni on this, it's not about punishing customers, but avoiding them to stop and start support just to cover an imminent problem. Too easy. Too easy! How can a company survive if customers don't pay them for their services? Supporting customers is something that has its high costs (spare parts availability, system updates maintenance, human resources available on customer request, and so on). This is why I ask you to have constant support, and not just when you need it. You just pay to ensure to be covered in case of failure. Or I will charge you a lot more, and in the timeframe I decide, not yours. OpenSource doesn't mean you have to have everything for free, to me it's just "let's build a better world together, and let's be safe about continuity of what we do". Thanks Mr. c0t0d0s0. I won't run a zpool destroy on you
Well I agree with paying for support und services. But it should fit more customers than only big data centers and or expensive mission critical apps. There are no options! Buy the Oracle Premier Support or not. If not, you're not allowed to run Solaris on Non-Oracle/Sun boxes and you're not allowed to get any updates even security updates!
Everybody else offers several support und service levels. The customer can choose the best level that fits his requirements. To prevent illegal use of the support contracts, for example using one cheep support und service level for several installation, why not request an valid license per machine? There are so many ways to offer a fair support and licensing model. The way Oracle goes with Solaris shows us, that Larry has true! He said Solaris is for big enterprise!!! Those customers have no problems with the new support and service offerings from Oracle, it's cheap! But the entry level and mid range market is dead. This is no suprise, because for small and medium size customers Oracle Enterprise Linux fits perfect and that's IMHO the reason why Oracle choosed this new, inflexibel and expensive service and support model for Solaris. Kind regards Tschokko
I can't agree with you. I always found this blog as a great source of information with a lot of truth in it, but this statement seems to me to be wrong as can be.
As many others said before, what Oracle is doing is killing Solaris by removing all but the biggest Enterprise Customers. I did plenty of evangelising which will all be void when this comes true. Many small or medium ranged facilities who want to use the power of Solaris won't be able to pay as much as the fees are rumoured to be. While OpenSolaris is a great OS, it's the rock-stability and very good tested and conservative code of Solaris we need. I know some admins who run just small, or even second hand Sun Hardware and want to use Solaris. They just need patches and maybe some technical help now and then. So why not provide them with free Patches and maybe an option for some basic support? I thought, Solaris was on it's way up, at least since Solaris 10. Now I'm seeing it dying away like True64, Irix or AIX. Ok, all of them had other reasons for dying but they are just to be found in the biggest of enterprises. New Sysadmins can't even learn the system without having expensive contracts or attending expensive courses. By now I got some people to try solaris, do some scripting, creating patches, because they could use it on a server in their small business or even at home, when they (as I did) use Solaris 10 as a home server to get to know it better so they can use it at work. I know, OpenSolaris is better for home use, but I want to "play" with the OS I need to work with. All these things are at risk now. I wouldn't use an unpatched server, not even at home. I'm afraid Oracle will kill it's own community. Not every Solaris guy will be happy with OpenSolaris.
it is a pain to see what happens with incredible products like (open)solaris, zfs, dtrace... etc.
sun was a company of technichans with a focus to the bleeding edge technolegy but they don't understand to make money! but oracle understand's to melk the customer and make money. and you don't make money with writing blogs all night long anybody musst pay for larrys yacht regards
1. I just waited for the first lame comment about Larry yacht
2. Of course you can earn money with employees blogging all night long, as it leaves the day for work
Your insurance analogy is flawed.
It's more like your'e paying off the Mob for not setting your house on fire. Software fixes (don't call it "bugs" and "patches". I'm a CS, and I call them by their colours. Programmer errors and logic flaws.) should be free. Additions that aren't corrections of errors should come at a fee. As such, Sun/Oracle is pulling in the fee at the wrong end. The customer shouldn't be punished for programmer/designer tardiness.
any rumors of oracle trying to tie core Oracle products like DBMS into the solaris OS support for clients running DBMS on Solaris?
Recertification of systems not under maintenance is not new. Sun started doing this a while ago. You could negotiate it away but your friendly Sun support rep would make it very hard.
Over the past year, the support has become more inflexible and started enforcing some things that were not before (CRU for example). I think this change only formalizes a lot of things that have been happening. However, the move to Premier support will be very hard to stomach for anyone with Silver contracts. Good thing we signed three-year agreements on most of our support contracts last year Did people not see this coming? Oracle has done this consistently when it buys a new company.
The evidence is stacking up, Oracle isn't interested in supporting Solaris unless it's running on their hardware: http://www.ypass.net/blog/2010/04/solaris-licensing-changes-the-real-story/ "For non-hardware purchasers – 3rd party, gray market, etc. – there is no legal way to obtain a permanent entitlement or to obtain support." is a direct quote from Sun, and http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2010-April/055852.html "HP has a contract to support Solaris for HP systems. Sun has cancelled that contract" is pretty damning. Solaris is no longer a general purpose OS, and people are going to be migrating to Linux with increasing speed, which makes me sad.
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